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Germani and Goths

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The start of my new section on the Migration Period is online in rough. At the moment it is simply an introduction, plus an opening section on the Germanic speakers. The wanderings of the Goths have their own new page - as yet incomplete. The tiny bit on the Ostrogoths is a placeholder. My plan is to create similar pages for the Anglo-Saxons and the Franks eventually.

Believe me - I have not forgotten the Slavs. It's just a question of logical sequence. I'll get there. But I'm seeking comment now on the Germanic section, while it's fresh in my mind.

Also new is a little sub-section on height under Who do you look like?

23 Comments On This Entry

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Norr 

07 July 2010 - 08:06 AM
In his book "Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race", Thomas Shore suggested that among the people from Denmark who emigrated to England and became the Anglo-Saxons might also have been people from Finland and the Baltic countries, or that they at least partly descended from the same Gothic stock :

http://www.archive.o...losax00shoruoft

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The ancient nations known as the Eastmen, on the east of the Baltic Sea and south of the Gulf of Finland i.e., the Esthonians, Livonians, Lechs, and Lithuanians were, without doubt, partly allied in race to those other old nations and tribes from which the bulk of the settlers in England came. Their ethnological characteristics of the present day, their dialects or language, and their folk-lore, all point to such a connection. As among all pagan Teutonic tribes, water-worship existed among the Eastmen, and still survives in these Baltic countries. In Livonia there is a holy rivulet whose source is in a sacred grove, within whose bounds no one dares to cut a tree. Traces of water-worship also survive among the Lechs. The heathen reverence for wells and fountains was one of the most persistent of Anglo-Saxon superstitions. As it could not be abolished, it was modified by the dedication of wells to Christian saints, and the existence of holy wells in all parts of England at thepresent time is evidence of the ancient reverence for them. The most remarkable custom, however, which the ancient Livonians had in common with the Scandinavians and Germans was a kind of pagan infant baptism, by which water was poured on the head of a new-born child and a name was at the same time given him. Some other remarkable customs which the Old English had in common with Fins and Esthonians were those connected with midsummer. It is scarcely possible for us to realize the full extent to which customs connected with the summer solstice prevailed among our tribal forefathers. Their vitality caused them to survive in England for more than a thousand years. The midsummer fires were lighted in many parts of our country, as they were in numerous districts in Northern Europe. The customs connected with the solstice must have been most strongly adhered to, if they had not indeed originated, in Northern lands. In the North of Britain, as in Finland, Esthonia, and the greater part of Sweden and Norway, the evening gloam of midsummer passes intothe morning dawn and there is no real night. It is from the Fins and Esthonians that we derive one of the most interesting of midsummer legends :

* Wanna Issi had two servants, Koit and Ammarik, and he gave them a torch which Koit should light every morning and Ammarik should extinguish every evening. In order to reward their faithful services, he told them they might be man and wife, but they asked Wanna Issi
that he would allow them to remain for ever bride and bridegroom. Wanna Issi assented, and henceforth Koit handed the torch every evening to Ammarik, and Ammarik took it and extinguished it. Only during four weeks in the summer they remain together at midnight. Koit
hands his dying torch to Ammarik, but Ammarik does not let it die ; she lights it again with her breath. Then their hands are stretched out, and their lips meet, and the blush on the face of Ammarik colours the midnight sky.' 1 The interest of the legend is increased by the meaning of the names. Wanna Issi in Esthonian means the Old Father, Koit means the dawn, and Ammarik means the gloaming, in the language of the common people.

The names Eastmen or Esterlings occur in early records as names referring in a general way to people coming into England from the East. The name Osgotbi, which is mentioned in two Saxon charters as the name of a place in Lincolnshire, now Osgodby, is more definite. The name Osgotecrosse is mentioned in the Hundred Rolls of Yorkshire. The name Osmington, or Osmenton, as that of an old place in Dorset, is mentioned in a Saxon charter and in Domesday Book. The Osgothi could scarcely be other than the Eastern Goths i.e., the Goths on the eastern coast of Sweden, or east of the Vistula, or some people of that race. The purest remnant of the old Gothic stock are the Dalecarlians, sometimes called the Swedish Highlanders, who inhabit the secluded district that stretches westwards from the Silian Lake to the mountains of Norway. They have preserved comparatively unchanged the manners and customs of their Gothic forefathers, and, as Bosworth has pointed out, a peculiarity of the old Gothic language viz., the aspiration of the letters / and w. By this they bear witness in their tongue to the present day of their descent, for these peculiarities are an infallible characteristic of the Mceso-Gothic, Anglo-Saxon, and Icelandic languages. The Anglo-Saxon people must have derived this peculiarity from a Northern source, for Bosworth tells us that the Danes and Germans cannot pronounce these aspirated letters.

The history of the Goths and Swedes in the Scandinavian peninsula shows that the latter became the predominant race in the ninth century, and subsequently the two nations were gradually blended into one. During the period when England received so many settlers from the North, we must look for traces of Goths and Swedes under their own tribal or national names. One of these was the tribe known as the Helsingi, whose homeland was the east coast of the Baltic, opposite to Finland, and, as the name Helsingfors shows, must have been connected with the Fins. They were also known as the Heslengi, and under the name Helsings are mentioned in the 'Traveller's Tale' in connection with Wade and his boat, a mythical hero, like Weland the Smith. As a Northern nation their name must have been familiar to the Old English. One of the peculiarities of the old dialect of the Gothic people of Dalecarlia that has survived is the transposition of syllables, as jasel for selja, and lata for tala. The transposition of consonant sounds, as in Helsingi and Heslengi, is well known. The survival of the name of this ancient tribe in those of Helsingborg on the west coast of Sweden, Helsingfors on the coast of Finland, and Helsinore, or Elsinore, on the coast of Zealand, points to the probability of their having been a maritime people, and as such likely to have taken part in maritime expeditions. In England such names as Helsington, near Kendal, and others may possibly refer to settlements of them.



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In the account of the early history of the Danes which Saxo gives us, we read of the part which other nations of the Baltic coasts took in the war between them and the Swedes. There were Kurlanders, Esthonians, Livonians, and Slavs, from the eastern or southern coasts of the Baltic Sea engaged in that war, and it is by such alliances rendered probable that in expeditions against England the Danes or Northmen also had Eastmen of these maritime nations acting with them. If alliances could exist in the later Anglo-Saxon period, there is no reason why they might not have existed during the time when the Danes were fighting for new homes and largely settling in England, or that some of these Baltic allied people may not have settled in England with them under the Danish name. Under that name Fins also may have come among other so-called Danes, and there is evidence that a few of them did come. Finland, the most northern of the Baltic countries, inhabited by people allied to, or perhaps even descended in part from, the old Gothic and Scandinavian stock, has been through the range of history, and still is, more advanced in the arts of civilization than its Slavic neighbours, and its geographical position in ancient time brought it into commercial intercourse with Scandinavia and Denmark.

Norr 

07 July 2010 - 08:19 AM
I think the above may explain why my mtDNA HVR1-matches spread from the Baltic countries to the British Isles along the coastal nations of the Baltic Sea and the North Sea:

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/7021/mtdna.jpg

Jean M 

07 July 2010 - 12:48 PM
Thanks for the comments. Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race was published in 1906. That doesn't make it wrong about everything, but let's say that it doesn't represent the most modern scholarship. I wouldn't rely on his views on linguistics.

The place-name suggestion is interesting, but the English Place-Name Society is uncertain of the derivation of Helsington (formerly in Westmorland, now Cumbria). It could be 'Hazel-tree farm/settlement' (from OE *haesling) or perhaps, 'farm/settlement of the Haelsingas (=' dwellers at the pass)'. Reallexikon der germanischen Altertumskunde, Volume 13 (1999), pp. 279-280 has an entry on the Haelsingas and ends up concluding that we can say little about them with certainty.

However your key point that some people whose origin lay outside Jutland could have joined the migrations to England is valid. Alternatively a Germanic visitor to Finland could have acquired a Finnish bride at some point long before the Migration Period. A Germanic presence in southern Finland is attested in the archaeological evidence of Nordic Late Bronze Age influence, as you will know.

Norr 

07 July 2010 - 15:32 PM

Jean M, on 07 July 2010 - 13:48 PM, said:

Thanks for the comments. Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race was published in 1906. That doesn't make it wrong about everything, but let's say that it doesn't represent the most modern scholarship. I wouldn't rely on his views on linguistics.

The place-name suggestion is interesting, but the English Place-Name Society is uncertain of the derivation of Helsington (formerly in Westmorland, now Cumbria). It could be 'Hazel-tree farm/settlement' (from OE *haesling) or perhaps, 'farm/settlement of the Haelsingas (=' dwellers at the pass)'. Reallexikon der germanischen Altertumskunde, Volume 13 (1999), pp. 279-280 has an entry on the Haelsingas and ends up concluding that we can say little about them with certainty.

However your key point that some people whose origin lay outside Jutland could have joined the migrations to England is valid. Alternatively a Germanic visitor to Finland could have acquired a Finnish bride at some point long before the Migration Period. A Germanic presence in southern Finland is attested in the archaeological evidence of Nordic :Late Bronze Age influence, as you will know.

I think the late Bronze Age is too early for mtDNA HVR1 matches. At least FamilytreeDNA says that a HVR1 match means that the probability of a common ancestor living within the last 1200 years is 50%. The Bronze Age in Scandinavia and Finland ended about 500 BC. That's 2500 years ago, i.e. more than twice the 1200 years, so it probably almost covers the 100% probability range. Furthermore, there is very little archaeological evidence of human activity between 500 BC - 0 in Finland, Sweden and Norway, so I'm not sure that the Bronze Age Settlments remained/survived in Finland.

Sirkku Pihlman wrote in her 1990 doctoral thesis Kansainvaellus- ja varhaismerovinkiajan aseet Suomessa (Migration Period and Early Merovingian Period Weapons in Finland) that there are archaeological signs of possible direct contacts between Finland and England from the 5th to the 6th century AD.

Jean M 

07 July 2010 - 17:19 PM
Very interesting Norr.

Quote

there is very little archaeological evidence of human activity between 500 BC - 0 in Finland, Sweden and Norway

Do you have any references for this, in addition to the two I cited? I couldn't find a general review.

Norr 

07 July 2010 - 20:06 PM

Jean M, on 07 July 2010 - 18:19 PM, said:

Very interesting Norr. I take your point about dating.


Do you have any references for this, in addition to the two I cited? I couldn't find a general review.


For example here:

http://www.novelguid...u_02_00170.html

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A DECLINE IN POPULATION

One surprising aspect of this period is that it has yielded relatively few archaeological remains. Earlier archaeologists, who worked primarily with grave finds, viewed the pre-Roman Iron Age as a regression period and, in some areas, such as Tro⁄ndelag, Norway, it would appear there was virtually no use of iron. This suggests that the population had declined. Although these early centuries remain comparatively obscure, since very few settlements are known from this period, in the 1990s and 2000s, thanks to a change of focus from grave goods to habitation sites, modern archaeological research has been able to contribute tremendously to our understanding of the pre-Roman Iron Age, providing a new picture of society, especially in southern Scandinavia. In fact, settlement development from the Bronze Age to the Early Roman Iron Age now appears to have been continuous. Certainly the climate, which for about two thousand years had been drier than it is now, became both wetter and colder, so that, toward the north, deciduous trees began to disappear and the glaciers began to re-form on the high ground. Investigations of Danish raised bogs have shown that the climate has fluctuated over the past 5,500 years and that these fluctuations lasted for about 260 years. The climatic changes in the final phase of prehistory can be located with great accuracy. A trend toward increased precipitation and lower summer temperatures set in about 600 B.C., just before the transition to the pre-Roman Iron Age. The next fluctuation took place about 300 B.C., and yet another very close to A.D. 0. This climatic deterioration probably affected the efficiency of farming.


And here:

http://www.sarks.fi/fa/faxxii.html

Quote

Reijo Solantie
ASPECTS OF SOME PREHISTORIC CULTURES IN RELATION TO CLIMATE IN SOUTHWESTERN FINLAND
Abstract
The cooling of the Finnish climate since 2800 BC after the Holocene optimum may have caused the retreat southwestwards of the Corded Ware and subsequent west-Finnish cultures, so that 3000 years later their settlement was to be found only on the southwestern coast. Indications of the cooling main of winters in just this period are given by the study of lake sediments cited and by the movement of the limit of occurrence of spruce. At each stage of retreat, the ’cold limit’ of settlement lay along the isopleths of the duration of permanent snow cover in the present climate. The problem for those cultures was the collecting of winter hay fodder for cattle without metal tools. The retreat was slower at the beginning of the Bronze Age, perhaps due to the introduction of flint-edged sickles. Assuming that each limit of the settlement during the retreat corresponded to the change of climate that also continued during the Bronze Age, it was found that the mean winter temperature fell by 4 to 5 °C. This temperature fall in Finland involves a contribution caused by the appreciable decrease in the volume and mean depth of the Gulf of Finland and the Gulf of Bothnia due to land uplift.

Jean M 

07 July 2010 - 22:14 PM
Thank you very much ! I did not have anything on climate for Finland. And the book chapter by Sophia Perdikaris provides an ideal overview. :)

parasar 

08 July 2010 - 03:30 AM
Jean,
On the Wandering of the Goths - what is your opinion on their war with the Egyptians and their connection to Parthians? The war with the Egyptians appears to have been much closer in time to Jordanes, ie well after their migration to the Black Sea:
"This was the region where the Goths dwelt when Vesosis, king of the Egyptians, made war upon them. Their king at that time was Tanausis. In a battle at the river Phasis (whence come the birds called pheasants, which are found in abundance at the banquets of the great all over the world) Tanausis, king of the Goths, met Vesosis, king of the Egyptians, and there inflicted a severe defeat upon him, pursuing him even to Egypt. Had he not been restrained by the waters of the impassable Nile and the fortifications which Vesosis had long ago ordered to be made against the raids of the Ethiopians, he would have slain him in his own land. But finding he had no power to injure him there, he returned and conquered almost all Asia and made it subject and tributary to Sornus, king of the Medes, who was then his dear friend. At that time some of his victorious army, seeing that the subdued provinces were rich and fruitful, deserted their companies and of their own accord remained in various parts of Asia. From their name or race Pompeius Trogus* says the stock of the Parthians had its origin. Hence even to-day in the Scythian tongue they are called Parthi, that is, Deserters. And in consequence of their descent they are archers--almost alone among all the nations of Asia--and are very valiant warriors. Now in regard to the name, though I have said they were called Parthi because they were deserters, some have traced the derivation of the word otherwise, saying that they were called Parthi because they fled from their kinsmen. Now when Tanausis, king of the Goths, was dead, his people worshipped him as one of their gods." *nam Scythico sermone Parthi exules dicuntur

Is Jordanes taking about the Gutians and Amorites of Sumer in Egypt's 11th dynasty period? The Gutian chief Tirigan's soldiers are known to have deserted and abandoned him.

Jean M 

08 July 2010 - 10:56 AM
According to Arne Søby Christensen, Cassiodorus, Jordanes and the history of the Goths: studies in a migration myth (2002), p. 237, Jordanes in this passage is confusing the Goths with the Scythians. He seems to be drawing on the account by Orosius of a battle between Scythians and Egyptians.

parasar 

08 July 2010 - 15:03 PM

Jean M, on 08 July 2010 - 06:56 AM, said:

According to Arne Søby Christensen, Cassiodorus, Jordanes and the history of the Goths: studies in a migration myth (2002), p. 237, Jordanes in this passage is confusing the Goths with the Scythians. He seems to be drawing on the account by Orosius of a battle between Scythians and Egyptians.


That is correct - Jordanes put the Goths as one of the peoples of Scythia [east of Danube & Vistula to land of the Seres].

"river Vistula, which rises in the Sarmatian mountains and flows through its triple mouth into the northern Ocean in sight of Scandza, separating Germany and Scythia."
"In search of suitable homes and pleasant places they came to the land of Scythia, called Oium in that tongue."
"Thence the victors hastened to the farthest part of Scythia, which is near the sea of Pontus; for so the story is generally told in their early songs, in almost historic fashion. Ablabius also, a famous chronicler of the Gothic race, confirms this in his most trustworthy account. (29) Some of the ancient writers also agree with the tale. Among these we may mention Josephus, a most reliable relator of annals, who everywhere follows the rule of truth and unravels from the beginning the origin of causes;--but why he has omitted the beginnings of the race of the Goths, of which I have spoken, I do not know. He barely mentions Magog of that stock*, and says they were Scythians by race and were called so by name."

Before we enter on our history, we must describe the boundaries of this land, as it lies.


V (30) Now Scythia borders on the land of Germany as far as the source of the river Ister and the expanse of the Morsian Swamp. It reaches even to the rivers Tyra, Danaster and Vagosola, and the great Danaper, extending to the Taurus range--not the mountains in Asia but our own, that is, the Scythian Taurus--all the way to Lake Maeotis. Beyond Lake Maeotis it spreads on the other side of the straits of Bosphorus to the Caucasus Mountains and the river Araxes. Then it bends back to the left behind the Caspian Sea, which comes from the north-eastern ocean in the most distant parts of Asia, and so is formed like a mushroom, at first narrow and then broad and round in shape. It extends as far as the Huns, Albani and Seres. (31) This land, I say,--namely, Scythia, stretching far and spreading wide,--has on the east the Seres, a race that dwelt at the very beginning of their history on the shore of the Caspian Sea. On the west are the Germans and the river Vistula; on the arctic side, namely the north, it is surrounded by Ocean; on the south by Persis, Albania, Hiberia, Pontus and the farthest channel of the Ister, which is called the Danube all the way from mouth to source. (32) But in that region where Scythia touches the Pontic coast it is dotted with towns of no mean fame:--Borysthenis, Olbia, Callipolis, Cherson, Theodosia, Careon, Myrmicion and Trapezus. These towns the wild Scythian tribes allowed the Greeks to build to afford them means of trade. In the midst of Scythia is the place that separates Asia and Europe, I mean the Rhipaeian mountains, from which the mighty Tanais flows. This river enters Maeotis, a marsh having a circuit of one hundred and forty-four miles and never subsiding to a depth of less than eight fathoms.

(33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression. From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.

(38) We read that on their first migration the Goths dwelt in the land of Scythia near Lake Maeotis. On the second migration they went to Moesia, Thrace and Dacia, and after their third they dwelt again in Scythia, above the Sea of Pontus."

Edit: *This I take to mean that the Goth are Gog who Jordanes considers to be same stock as Magog, or is my reading wrong?

Jean M 

08 July 2010 - 15:34 PM
Parasar - It is important to understand that Jordanes

1) was writing a summary of the 12-volume work by Cassiodorus on the history of the Goths

2) Cassiodorus wrote this for a King of the Goths.

3) Cassiodorus wanted to use all the material he could find. But there was very little. Before their contact with the Empire and Christianity, the Goths were not a literate people, and were too far away from the Mediterranean to be much noticed by Greek and Roman writers. So Cassiodorus used whatever stories that he could convince himself (and his patron) were about the Goths, when actually they were about the Getae or (in this case) the Scythians. It is all completely irrelevant to the actual history of the Goths.

All I am trying to write is a quick summary of the migrations of the Goths, so I can't go into vast amounts of source analysis, but I have now added a few words about Jordanes mixing up Goths and Scythians and cited the full and detailed critique by Arne Søby Christensen for those interested.

The reference to Gog and Magog is part of the attempt to trace every nation back to a Biblical source. I cover that briefly in Origin Stories - see Noah's Brood section for the basics, plus:

Quote

Iafeth [Japheth] is pictured as the patriarch of the nations of "Asia Minor, Armenia, Media, the People of Scythia; and of him are the inhabitants of all Europe." This was standard thinking for Christian writers of the time, following the Jewish historian Josephus (37-c.100 AD) and Isidore of Seville (c.560-635). Increasingly complex genealogies from Noah were created.


Jordanes was disgruntled that Josephus did not fit the Goths onto his elaborate family tree of Magog, son of Japheth.

parasar 

08 July 2010 - 21:24 PM

Jean M, on 08 July 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

Parasar - It is important to understand that Jordanes

1) was writing a summary of the 12-volume work by Cassiodorus on the history of the Goths

2) Cassiodorus wrote this for a King of the Goths.

3) Cassiodorus wanted to use all the material he could find. But there was very little. Before their contact with the Empire and Christianity, the Goths were not a literate people, and were too far away from the Mediterranean to be much noticed by Greek and Roman writers. So Cassiodorus used whatever stories that he could convince himself (and his patron) were about the Goths, when actually they were about the Getae or (in this case) the Scythians. It is all completely irrelevant to the actual history of the Goths.

All I am trying to write is a quick summary of the migrations of the Goths, so I can't go into vast amounts of source analysis, but I have now added a few words about Jordanes mixing up Goths and Scythians and cited the full and detailed critique by Arne Søby Christensen for those interested.

The reference to Gog and Magog is part of the attempt to trace every nation back to a Biblical source. I cover that briefly in Origin Stories - see Noah's Brood section for the basics, plus:



Jordanes was disgruntled that Josephus did not fit the Goths onto his elaborate family tree of Magog, son of Japheth.

Jean,
I agree with all of the above except the Scythian part, ie, there is nothing wrong in saying Goth=Scythian as long as we understand that Scythians were not some uniquely identifiable tribe but a conglomerate assortment of peoples east of Vistula and Danube.

Jean M 

08 July 2010 - 22:06 PM
There is everything wrong with saying saying Goth=Scythian. It makes a nonsense of the concept of Goth and the concept of Scythian.

You are right that the Scythians were not a single tribe. It is true that ancient authors were vague about who they were, and tended to lump many steppe people together as Scythian/Saka. But we should attempt a better identification, on the basis of culture and language. The Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans spoke languages in the Iranian group.

The Goths spoke a Germanic language.

The Huns arrived in Scythia and drove most of the Goths out of the steppe. That did not turn the Huns into Scythians, though some Alani joined them.

Visvakarman 

09 July 2010 - 19:18 PM
Regarding the Visigoths in Hispania, according to E.A. Thompson the Goths remained a distinctive group, somehow separated from the Roman population. That separation was legal before they converted to the Nicenian faith (mixed marriages were forbidden) but even after that there were some telling details. The king was "King of the Goths" and only a Goth could be king. Goths could have Roman names but Romans never had Goth names, so that we can discern the importance of the Gothic aristocracy in the government. Thompson notes that the predominance of the Gothic aristocracy actually grew in the last years of the kingdom. Finally, against some other historians, Thompson shows that Gothic language was still spoken to the end.

Jean M 

09 July 2010 - 19:36 PM
Thanks Visvakarman. That's very useful. I intend to come back to the Goths when I can lay hands on one or two recent works. A. E. Thompson, The Goths in Spain (1969) is maybe a bit dated, but it does have the advantage of being in my local university library!

parasar 

10 July 2010 - 03:26 AM

Jean M, on 08 July 2010 - 18:06 PM, said:

There is everything wrong with saying saying Goth=Scythian. It makes a nonsense of the concept of Goth and the concept of Scythian.

I would suppose that Jordanes knew his folk's name and affinity better that others who wrote about them. He calls his tribe Getarum, while mentioning Gotharum as a form used by others. There is no doubt Jordanes was following Cassiodorus who himself then must been following Ammanius. Nevertheless, Jordanes does not follow them on his own ethnic name.
After reading Christensen's analysis, I have to say that only Grimm makes sense - that the history of the Goths is indeed a history of the Getae and the part that looks less convincing in light of the time-line is their migration from Scandinavia.

Jean M 

10 July 2010 - 04:51 AM
Jordanes is simply following other authors who mixed up the Goths and Getae. It is not that he knows by some other means that they were Getae. He cites an author as saying that the two were the same.

Christensen is handicapped by simply analysing the documentary sources, which naturally enough are slight for the early movements of the Goths, before they really swim into the Roman vision. He pays no attention to the archaeology or linguistics. The Getae were Thracians/Dacians, who would not suddenly start speaking a Germanic language.

The only explanation for a people cropping up north of the Black Sea, not only speaking a Germanic language, but leaving archaeological evidence of Germanic ways, is that a Germanic people migrated.

Since Jordanes (following Cassiodorus) has hopelessly muddled the Goths and the Getae, of course his time-line is rubbish. That means nothing. The actual timing can be deduced from archaeology and linguistics.

parasar 

10 July 2010 - 16:09 PM

Jean M, on 10 July 2010 - 00:51 AM, said:

Jordanes is simply following other authors who mixed up the Goths and Getae. It is not that he knows by some other means that they were Getae. He cites an author as saying that the two were the same.

True. My point is that he is a Geta and his is telling the story of the Getae.

Jean M, on 10 July 2010 - 00:51 AM, said:

The only explanation for a people cropping up north of the Black Sea, not only speaking a Germanic language, but leaving archaeological evidence of Germanic ways, is that a Germanic people migrated.


Under the assumption that Germanic folk moved east to west, isn't it possible that they are some of the earlier Germanics?

Herodotus places the Getae in Thrace adjacent to the Scythians separated by the Danube in his period. Jordanes makes them move back and forth across the Danube: "dwelt in the land of Scythia near Lake Maeotis; in their second in Moesia, Thrace and Dacia, and in their third they dwelt again in Scythia ... Filimer as king while they remained in their first home in Scythia near Maeotis. In their second home, that is, in the countries of Dacia, Thrace and Moesia, Zalmoxes reigned, whom many writers of annals mention as a man of remarkable learning in philosophy. Yet even before this they had a learned man Zeuta, and after him Dicineus; and the third was Zalmoxes of whom I have made mention above."
And under the Hun-Alan pressure they cross the Danube again.

What is your opinion of the Danes-Danu? They seem to be the same as Dacians, much as the the Goth are equated to the Getae.

Norr 

10 July 2010 - 23:01 PM
It would be interesting if someone studied a possible connection between Goths and Pakistan/Afghanistan/Northern India. Decodeme gave me (a Finn) a closer match with a Pashtun from Pakistan than for example with an Italian. Also DNATribes gave me matches in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Northern India. It is said about the Pashtun that they have Nordic admixture:

http://en.wikipedia....le#Anthropology

Quote

Racially, Pashtun people are classified as Caucasians: from Mediterranean race[47] with Nordic mixture.


There have also been speculations that the Jat people have some Gothic/Jutish blood in them:

http://www.jatland.c...e/Indo-Scythian

Quote

Professor B.S. Dhillon states that Jat people are mainly of Indo-Scythian lineage with composite mixing of Sarmatians, Goths & Jutes in History and study of the Jats. Historian James Tod agreed in considering the Jat people to be of Indo-Scythian Stock.[8] Moreover, Sir Alexander Cunningham, Former Director-General of the Archeological Survey of India, considered the Jat people to be the Xanthii (a Scythian tribe) of Scythian stock who he considered very likely called the Zaths (Jats) of early Arab writers.[9] He stated "their name is found in Northern India from the beginning of the Christian era." These people were considered by early Arab writers to have descended from Meds and Zaths.[10][11] Sir Cunningham believes they "were in full possession of the valley of the Indus towards the end of the seventh century.[12] Sir Alexander Cunningham held that the Rajputs belonged to the original Scythian stock, and the Jats to a late wave of immigrants from the north west, of Scythian race.[12]


Also the people in the Orkney Islands have been found to have genetic similarities with the Pakistanis:

http://www.telegraph...-relatives.html

Quote

Orkney Islanders are more closely related to people in Siberia and in Pakistan than those in Africa and the near East, according to a novel method to chart human migrations.

The surprising findings come from a new way to infer ancient human movements from the variation of DNA in people today, conducted by a team from the University of Oxford and University College Cork, which has pioneered a technique that analyses the entire human genetic makeup, or genome.

Jean M 

11 July 2010 - 11:57 AM
Comparisons between present peoples can only tell you about the similarities or differences that they have today. It does not tell you how those similarities arose. So if for example a Pakistani seems to have "Nordic admixture", it does not mean that someone from Scandinavia migrated to Pakistan. It only means that the Nordic peoples and Pakistanis have a common element.

Within Europe and Asia, R1a1a is distributed mainly over the eastern part of the Indo-European-speaking region. So a number of geneticists have deduced that R1a1a is an Indo-European marker, and was spread east and west by the people of the Pontic-Caspian steppe between about 4000 and 2000 BC. Naturally with R1a1a, the Indo-European speakers carried autosomal genetic characteristics as well, which seems to include the T-13910 allele conferring lactase persistence.

As the IE-speakers spread across the steppes and up the Danube and other rivers into northern Europe, another migration took place to the north of them, as Uralic speakers spread through the forest-steppe, bringing some of the ancestors of the Finns and Saami. They are related to peoples right across Siberia, as we see from the genetic marker Y-DNA N1c.
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