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23 Comments
The Basques are a puzzle. They were long considered a relic of the hunter-gatherer past, because of their non-Indo-European language, and their seeming genetic oddity. They have the highest level in the world of blood group O Rhesus-negative. So it was stunning to find that the Basques are similar to their neighbours in other genetic markers. The common Western European Y-DNA haplogroup R1b1b2 is as strongly represented in them as in the rest of Iberia, and indeed Western Europe. A sample of Basques was 91.7% lactase persistent, a mutation connected to pastoralism. For years geneticists clung to the idea that R1b1b2 was ancient in Europe, having spread from Iberia with the re-colonisation of northern Europe after the last glacial period. But this theory was seriously flawed. As I posted yesterday, it has been abandoned by at least one team of geneticists.
So reconsideration of the Basques is long overdue. I have been gradually adding to my page on the Basques, as new ideas strike me. One clue is the genetic isolation of mountain villages. A study of isolated people of the Caucasus that I mentioned late last year shows how unusual genetic patterns can arise in such pockets. That includes a level of Rhesus-negative blood in parts of Western Georgia that rivals that among the Basques. So is the high frequency of blood group O Rhesus-negative among the Basques the result of genetic drift? That could have happened if the Basques were long concentrated in the Pyrenees Mountains.
But if they were isolated, how could they have gained Y-DNA haplogroup R1b1b2 and lactase persistence from constant inter-marriage with their Celtic neighbours? It would be more likely that they arrived in the Pyrenees with these traits. That tips the balance towards the idea that the Basques were Copper Age prospectors, who arrived along with the wave of Indo-European colonisation, but happened to speak a different language. Adjoining the Pontic-Caspian steppe, where it is deduced that the Proto-Indo-European language developed, is the Caucasus, which today harbours a startling variety of languages. In the North-West Caucasus a group of languages is spoken today which some have linked to the Basque language, Euskara.
Euskara appears to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), smith (harotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zilar). If Euskara were originally the language of hunter-gatherers of South-West Europe, one would expect it to have borrowed words relating to agriculture and metallurgy. A common pattern, where a people adopt a new technology from those speaking another language, is for the foreign words for that technology to be borrowed at the same time. Oddly the Basque words for tin (eztainu), copper (kobre) and bronze (brontze) are all borrowed - or so it seems. [See the comment below.]
Most significant is the word for wine. Larry Trask pointed out that "the only remotely similar words for `wine' found anywhere are Albanian ardhi and Armenian ort, which are usually thought to be cognate with each other and sometimes thought to be connected with the Basque word." It seems that wine was first made in Georgia and Iran - adjacent to Armenia. So it seems at least possible that the Basques descend from a Copper Age group from the Caucasus, drawn to the Pyrenees by its copper resources.
So reconsideration of the Basques is long overdue. I have been gradually adding to my page on the Basques, as new ideas strike me. One clue is the genetic isolation of mountain villages. A study of isolated people of the Caucasus that I mentioned late last year shows how unusual genetic patterns can arise in such pockets. That includes a level of Rhesus-negative blood in parts of Western Georgia that rivals that among the Basques. So is the high frequency of blood group O Rhesus-negative among the Basques the result of genetic drift? That could have happened if the Basques were long concentrated in the Pyrenees Mountains.
But if they were isolated, how could they have gained Y-DNA haplogroup R1b1b2 and lactase persistence from constant inter-marriage with their Celtic neighbours? It would be more likely that they arrived in the Pyrenees with these traits. That tips the balance towards the idea that the Basques were Copper Age prospectors, who arrived along with the wave of Indo-European colonisation, but happened to speak a different language. Adjoining the Pontic-Caspian steppe, where it is deduced that the Proto-Indo-European language developed, is the Caucasus, which today harbours a startling variety of languages. In the North-West Caucasus a group of languages is spoken today which some have linked to the Basque language, Euskara.
Euskara appears to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), smith (harotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zilar). If Euskara were originally the language of hunter-gatherers of South-West Europe, one would expect it to have borrowed words relating to agriculture and metallurgy. A common pattern, where a people adopt a new technology from those speaking another language, is for the foreign words for that technology to be borrowed at the same time. Oddly the Basque words for tin (eztainu), copper (kobre) and bronze (brontze) are all borrowed - or so it seems. [See the comment below.]
Most significant is the word for wine. Larry Trask pointed out that "the only remotely similar words for `wine' found anywhere are Albanian ardhi and Armenian ort, which are usually thought to be cognate with each other and sometimes thought to be connected with the Basque word." It seems that wine was first made in Georgia and Iran - adjacent to Armenia. So it seems at least possible that the Basques descend from a Copper Age group from the Caucasus, drawn to the Pyrenees by its copper resources.
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23 Comments On This Entry
Visvakarman
20 January 2010 - 17:54 PM
Some linguistical precissions
Kobre is not the only word for copper. There is okaina and topiki. Okaina is only found in composed names, while topiki, although related to copper, means rather any melted metal as opposed to forged metal. There is also the composed durdin-gorri, red iron, for copper. Pushkariova thinks that the original name, okaina, was replaced in a late period because of the massive copper importations from Spain in historical times.
Kobre is not the only word for copper. There is okaina and topiki. Okaina is only found in composed names, while topiki, although related to copper, means rather any melted metal as opposed to forged metal. There is also the composed durdin-gorri, red iron, for copper. Pushkariova thinks that the original name, okaina, was replaced in a late period because of the massive copper importations from Spain in historical times.
Jean M
20 January 2010 - 18:33 PM
I was expecting some interesting commentary from you Visvakarman. That's very helpful.
authun
21 January 2010 - 15:38 PM
"But this theory was seriously flawed. As I posted yesterday, it has been abandoned by at least one team of geneticists."
This overstates the number of people who did buy into it. Many were lukewarm about it at best. Weale and Capelli couched their studies in terms such as 'Wilson suggests' or 'Wilson argues'. Jim Wilson himself even stated, there is no proof of this. It seems that they were all tip toeing around something with which they were not convinced about but which did not matter too much as it was not fundamental to what they were studying.
Santos Alonso described the paleolithic continuity of the Basques as a trend; "There is a trend to consider the gene pool of the Basques as a 'living fossil' of the earliest modern humans that colonized Europe." in 2005, and his subsequent study concluded: "... nor we find evidence supporting Basques as the focus of major population expansions."
I hope Balaresque's study will stimulate more investigation into the history of the Basque population as I am sure their history, together with that of the Aquitanians of the roman era, will contribute much to the understanding of the Indo Europeans.
This overstates the number of people who did buy into it. Many were lukewarm about it at best. Weale and Capelli couched their studies in terms such as 'Wilson suggests' or 'Wilson argues'. Jim Wilson himself even stated, there is no proof of this. It seems that they were all tip toeing around something with which they were not convinced about but which did not matter too much as it was not fundamental to what they were studying.
Santos Alonso described the paleolithic continuity of the Basques as a trend; "There is a trend to consider the gene pool of the Basques as a 'living fossil' of the earliest modern humans that colonized Europe." in 2005, and his subsequent study concluded: "... nor we find evidence supporting Basques as the focus of major population expansions."
I hope Balaresque's study will stimulate more investigation into the history of the Basque population as I am sure their history, together with that of the Aquitanians of the roman era, will contribute much to the understanding of the Indo Europeans.
Jean M
21 January 2010 - 16:42 PM
@ Authun You could well be right about the private feelings of a number of geneticists. However, strong public dismissals by academics of the idea of R1b as a keynote of the European Mesolithic have been in short supply. So much so that the Genographic Project and every DNA testing company has continued to present R1b as Cro-Magnon. A stream of testees has arrived on this forum happily declaring themselves descendants of Doggerland. They are startled to encounter a lack of enthusiasm for this picture. The publicity around the Balaresque paper is therefore very welcome.
Peter T
21 January 2010 - 18:09 PM
Jean
You seem to have completely discounted the possibility that the R1b1b2 'invaders' who became the Basques may have adopted the language of the 'indigenous' inhabitants of the area (whoever they were).
May I ask why you would rule this out. Thanks
You seem to have completely discounted the possibility that the R1b1b2 'invaders' who became the Basques may have adopted the language of the 'indigenous' inhabitants of the area (whoever they were).
May I ask why you would rule this out. Thanks
Jean M
21 January 2010 - 19:57 PM
An excellent question Peter. That is a point that I should have addressed directly.
I think we can rule it out, because the Basque language appears to date from the age of metal. Visvakarman strengthened that case for me.
There seems to be a general assumption that because Euskara is not IE, that it must pre-date IE in the region where it is now spoken. Similar assumptions have been made about other non-IE languages in Europe (apart from Hungarian, which arrived in historic times.)
I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else. The earliest versions of The Peopling of Europe talked merrily about IE languages supplanting those of the early farmers. I gave various examples, and then had to remove them one by one, as light dawned. The Minoans actually arrived in Crete about the same time as the Mycenaeans reached the Greek mainland. The Etruscans arrived in Italy after the Italics. I now suspect that both Basques and Iberians arrived in Iberia along with the first IE colonies.
All credit to John Serrat, who challenged my assumptions on this from the start, and to Authun, who commented months ago that Euskara seemed a fairly young language.
I think we can rule it out, because the Basque language appears to date from the age of metal. Visvakarman strengthened that case for me.
There seems to be a general assumption that because Euskara is not IE, that it must pre-date IE in the region where it is now spoken. Similar assumptions have been made about other non-IE languages in Europe (apart from Hungarian, which arrived in historic times.)
I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else. The earliest versions of The Peopling of Europe talked merrily about IE languages supplanting those of the early farmers. I gave various examples, and then had to remove them one by one, as light dawned. The Minoans actually arrived in Crete about the same time as the Mycenaeans reached the Greek mainland. The Etruscans arrived in Italy after the Italics. I now suspect that both Basques and Iberians arrived in Iberia along with the first IE colonies.
All credit to John Serrat, who challenged my assumptions on this from the start, and to Authun, who commented months ago that Euskara seemed a fairly young language.
Visvakarman
21 January 2010 - 20:13 PM
Some more thoughts.
Euskera has very little Celtic influence (the only word with a certain Celtic connection seems to be Adar (horn) similar to the Irish Adharc) , despite a presumibly long neighbourhood with Celtic speaking populations. Looking at those key IE words, horse and wheel, they are both indigenous in Eauskera. Horse, Zaldi, is also attested in Aquitanian and Iberian names, with variants Zaldu/Saltu. Wheel, Gurpil, is a word based on the root gur*, with the general meaning of a movement forward and circular motion, like in Gurdi, chariot. Aquitanians were known to Caesar as excellent horsemen.
We have to think that Basques were not an isolated population in Ancient times. Euskera is clearly a daughter language of Aquitanian, which in turn seems to be a sister language to Iberian languages, they together extended over a region far beyond the Pyrenees. IMO the isolation of later Basques is basically a product of keeping a different language from their neighbours and so a separated cultural identity.
Euskera has very little Celtic influence (the only word with a certain Celtic connection seems to be Adar (horn) similar to the Irish Adharc) , despite a presumibly long neighbourhood with Celtic speaking populations. Looking at those key IE words, horse and wheel, they are both indigenous in Eauskera. Horse, Zaldi, is also attested in Aquitanian and Iberian names, with variants Zaldu/Saltu. Wheel, Gurpil, is a word based on the root gur*, with the general meaning of a movement forward and circular motion, like in Gurdi, chariot. Aquitanians were known to Caesar as excellent horsemen.
We have to think that Basques were not an isolated population in Ancient times. Euskera is clearly a daughter language of Aquitanian, which in turn seems to be a sister language to Iberian languages, they together extended over a region far beyond the Pyrenees. IMO the isolation of later Basques is basically a product of keeping a different language from their neighbours and so a separated cultural identity.
Jean M
21 January 2010 - 20:34 PM
Visvakarman - more interesting thoughts. Yes, you have put your finger on the weak spot of my idea of the mountain fastnesses accounting for 0 Rh+, unless this was the Caucasus mountains. The Aquitanians had quite a chunk of SW Gaul.
When you say that Iberian was a sister language, are you suggesting an actual relationship? I thought Iberian was a language isolate.
When you say that Iberian was a sister language, are you suggesting an actual relationship? I thought Iberian was a language isolate.
Visvakarman
22 January 2010 - 07:38 AMJean M, on 21 January 2010 - 21:34 PM, said:
Visvakarman - more interesting thoughts. Yes, you have put your finger on the weak spot of my idea of the mountain fastnesses accounting for 0 Rh+, unless this was the Caucasus mountains. The Aquitanians had quite a chunk of SW Gaul.
When you say that Iberian was a sister language, are you suggesting an actual relationship? I thought Iberian was a language isolate.
When you say that Iberian was a sister language, are you suggesting an actual relationship? I thought Iberian was a language isolate.
Aquitanian and the Iberian languages (there are at least 3 different ones identified) are clearly related, probably as different branches of the same linguistic family, that is supported by Gorrochategui and Michelena, who made a comparative analysis of both languages (you can read about it in the Wiki entry for Aquitanian language)
rwporter
22 January 2010 - 19:00 PM
For months now I have been getting the idea that you were moving toward a connection between Bell Beakers, Basques, R1b and metallurgy. I think your suggestion that there was a clan that held the secrets of metalworking is just what is needed to tie them all together. R1b could be one of several haplogroups participating in the Bell Beaker culture and may have spoken an IE language, but a clan of mostly R1b might preserve its own language and restrict its membership. This might keep the clan as mostly a few selected haplotypes of R1b. It didn’t need to be the first clan to develop metallurgy or the only clan to do so, but if it was the last clan it would be the one that left its mark on the geography of Europe.
If the possession of metal made a great difference economically, the knowledge of the making of metal might have been too valuable to share with everyone. It may have been kept within one extended family or descendants of one original community where it arose or where it was stolen from another clan. It may have represented a power that gave its holders a status far above everyone else. This may have allowed the holders of these secrets greater and more widespread mate selection. A hunter-gatherer economy would allow a dominant male to father a certain number of children and raise them to adulthood. How much larger is that figure for a farming economy? What about an economy based on industry? If a small group could exploit the labor of many, would they also be able to father and raise more children? Would this result in a reduced number of haplotypes becoming dominant in an area over time? Would a model with a metal industry lead to haplotypes of reduced diversity swamping a geographic area?
I am thinking that your metal clan might have built strongholds in mountains where they could control metal at its source. These strongholds might have remained fairly isolated from the original surrounding inhabitants. If the metal was mined-out and there was no longer a metal industry, would the customs and practices of isolation be propagated to later generations?
The thing I like best about your ideas is that they seem to offer the only real explanation for my autosomal results from DNA Tribes that I have seen. I’d be willing to bet money that you are beginning to sort out this whole Bell Beaker, Basque, Brigante, R1b, Celt, metal relationship.
If the possession of metal made a great difference economically, the knowledge of the making of metal might have been too valuable to share with everyone. It may have been kept within one extended family or descendants of one original community where it arose or where it was stolen from another clan. It may have represented a power that gave its holders a status far above everyone else. This may have allowed the holders of these secrets greater and more widespread mate selection. A hunter-gatherer economy would allow a dominant male to father a certain number of children and raise them to adulthood. How much larger is that figure for a farming economy? What about an economy based on industry? If a small group could exploit the labor of many, would they also be able to father and raise more children? Would this result in a reduced number of haplotypes becoming dominant in an area over time? Would a model with a metal industry lead to haplotypes of reduced diversity swamping a geographic area?
I am thinking that your metal clan might have built strongholds in mountains where they could control metal at its source. These strongholds might have remained fairly isolated from the original surrounding inhabitants. If the metal was mined-out and there was no longer a metal industry, would the customs and practices of isolation be propagated to later generations?
The thing I like best about your ideas is that they seem to offer the only real explanation for my autosomal results from DNA Tribes that I have seen. I’d be willing to bet money that you are beginning to sort out this whole Bell Beaker, Basque, Brigante, R1b, Celt, metal relationship.
rwporter
27 January 2010 - 08:15 AM
I’ve already posted something to the forum: R1b1b2 is Neolithic entrant to Europe from Near East, but I thought I’d also put a remark here. I contacted DNA Tribes about a complete listing of my matches to their populations. The results have changed a little since the top 20 values were first provided to me but they are essentially the same. Now my top match is Basques (0.92) with 148,862.60 with second place going to Extremadura, Spain (0.98) with 139,421.77.
I seem to score higher for Basques including populations in the northeast of Spain, and perhaps southern France (are there southern French Basques included in these populations?). I also have high matches for France, Switzerland, and Sardinia. My match values do not drop below 1,000 until I reach population 208, Belarus (0.75) at 992.96. It appears that these values may alter as DNA Tribes adds populations, but my correlation to Basque is so strong that a review of my matches with other populations might be of some interest.
As it turns out, looking at the populations with which I show matches, there seems to be a clear trail for my strongest correlations having migrated from the eastern side of the Black Sea, north and then west through Romania, northern Italy, where a group heads north into Switzerland and Austria, while my main matches moved further west into France and then probably into northern Spain, or perhaps a group branched off there while a tiny group of my direct ancestors went to Scotland, around Dundee.
The implications for the model of Iberian migration from the Caucasus to southern France and northern Spain are obvious. There is also a tie-in with Switzerland and Austria. This suggests that the Brigantes might actually be one people located in Switzerland, Spain, and Britain. A connection between southern France and Scotland also suggests that the Picts and Pictones were the same people.
I realize that my information is just the data from one person and from a company that many feel uncomfortable with, but the results are so striking as to demand some attention. The easiest explanations have already been outlined in Jean M’s discussion about the Basques. There is nothing in my data to indicate a model different from that of copper workers traveling west in a mixed, perhaps multi-ethnic, migration to the west. However, my information also suggests some migration into northern India and into Turkey from the east. Results from more populations in Britain, France and the Caucasus might be very enlightening, but as they stand I feel they give a strong suggestion of what models should now be considered and tested.
I seem to score higher for Basques including populations in the northeast of Spain, and perhaps southern France (are there southern French Basques included in these populations?). I also have high matches for France, Switzerland, and Sardinia. My match values do not drop below 1,000 until I reach population 208, Belarus (0.75) at 992.96. It appears that these values may alter as DNA Tribes adds populations, but my correlation to Basque is so strong that a review of my matches with other populations might be of some interest.
As it turns out, looking at the populations with which I show matches, there seems to be a clear trail for my strongest correlations having migrated from the eastern side of the Black Sea, north and then west through Romania, northern Italy, where a group heads north into Switzerland and Austria, while my main matches moved further west into France and then probably into northern Spain, or perhaps a group branched off there while a tiny group of my direct ancestors went to Scotland, around Dundee.
The implications for the model of Iberian migration from the Caucasus to southern France and northern Spain are obvious. There is also a tie-in with Switzerland and Austria. This suggests that the Brigantes might actually be one people located in Switzerland, Spain, and Britain. A connection between southern France and Scotland also suggests that the Picts and Pictones were the same people.
I realize that my information is just the data from one person and from a company that many feel uncomfortable with, but the results are so striking as to demand some attention. The easiest explanations have already been outlined in Jean M’s discussion about the Basques. There is nothing in my data to indicate a model different from that of copper workers traveling west in a mixed, perhaps multi-ethnic, migration to the west. However, my information also suggests some migration into northern India and into Turkey from the east. Results from more populations in Britain, France and the Caucasus might be very enlightening, but as they stand I feel they give a strong suggestion of what models should now be considered and tested.
L.D.Brousse
09 February 2010 - 21:35 PM
What are the physical traits that make Basque people different?
Jean M
10 February 2010 - 16:38 PM
As I say in the post, Basques have the highest level in the world of blood group O Rhesus-negative.
If you are wondering what Basque people look like - Visvakarman is Basque and has his photograph on his profile. Wikipedia has a collage of 28 people of Basque descent: http://commons.wikim...sque_people.png
(It is cheating a bit with Che Guevara, who was only partly Basque.)
If you are wondering what Basque people look like - Visvakarman is Basque and has his photograph on his profile. Wikipedia has a collage of 28 people of Basque descent: http://commons.wikim...sque_people.png
(It is cheating a bit with Che Guevara, who was only partly Basque.)
L.D.Brousse
10 February 2010 - 21:01 PM
you are saying that R1b1c6/SYR2627+ is not an original basque haplotype?
Jean M
10 February 2010 - 22:27 PM
I wasn't saying anything about that haplogroup, but I will now. A study by A. M. Lopez-Parra et al., In search of the Pre- and Post-Neolithic Genetic Substrates in Iberia: Evidence from Y-Chromosome in Pyrenean Populations, Annals of Human Genetics (2008) looked at Y-DNA in the Pyrenees on the border between Catalonia and France. They found high levels of what they call R1b1b2d (now R1b1b2a1a2c) i.e. M167/SYR2627. The highest was 48% in Vale de Aran.
They point out that M167/SYR2627 runs at about 2-7% across Iberia. An earlier study (Hurles et al. 1999) reported 4-11% in Basques and 22% in Catalans. But subsequent studies showed only 4.17% in Basques from Biscay, 4.55% from Alava and Navarre, and absent in Basques from Gipuzkoa. So no different from other Iberians.
They point out that M167/SYR2627 runs at about 2-7% across Iberia. An earlier study (Hurles et al. 1999) reported 4-11% in Basques and 22% in Catalans. But subsequent studies showed only 4.17% in Basques from Biscay, 4.55% from Alava and Navarre, and absent in Basques from Gipuzkoa. So no different from other Iberians.
Quote
Summarizing the available data, it appears that R1b1b2d [SYR2627] is much more frequent in the Central/Eastern Pyrenees than in other Iberian regions. Such a distribution pattern makes it unlikely that the Basque area could have been the region of origin of R1b1b2d.
L.D.Brousse
10 February 2010 - 23:31 PMJean M, on 10 February 2010 - 17:27 PM, said:
I wasn't saying anything about that haplogroup, but I will now. A study by A. M. Lopez-Parra et al., In search of the Pre- and Post-Neolithic Genetic Substrates in Iberia: Evidence from Y-Chromosome in Pyrenean Populations, Annals of Human Genetics (2008) looked at Y-DNA in the Pyrenees on the border between Catalonia and France. They found high levels of what they call R1b1b2d (now R1b1b2a1a2c) i.e. M167/SYR2627. The highest was 48% in Vale de Aran.
They point out that M167/SYR2627 runs at about 2-7% across Iberia. An earlier study (Hurles et al. 1999) reported 4-11% in Basques and 22% in Catalans. But subsequent studies showed only 4.17% in Basques from Biscay, 4.55% from Alava and Navarre, and absent in Basques from Gipuzkoa. So no different from other Iberians.
They point out that M167/SYR2627 runs at about 2-7% across Iberia. An earlier study (Hurles et al. 1999) reported 4-11% in Basques and 22% in Catalans. But subsequent studies showed only 4.17% in Basques from Biscay, 4.55% from Alava and Navarre, and absent in Basques from Gipuzkoa. So no different from other Iberians.
Jean why does family tree DNA say my haplotype is found mostly in the UK . I knew I was SRY2627+ but went on and ordered the test now confirmed AS far as I have read it is not found in large numbers in England
Jean M
11 February 2010 - 13:39 PM
It might be better to ask that question in the forum. I'm afraid that I know next to nothing about Family Tree DNA. Since yours is a French surname, it would be more interesting to know the level of this haplogroup in France, over the border from Catalonia.
rwporter
12 February 2010 - 08:09 AM
In looking through my results from DNA Tribes I noticed that while my highest value match was with a Basque population, there was one Basque population for which my score was zero. That caused me to suspect that Basques were not all alike. A review of my scores shows:
1 Basque (0.92) 148,862.60
12 Basque (Spain) (0.91) 17,099.73
13 Basque (Basque Country, Spain) (0.88) 16,278.12
25 Basque (Vizcaya, Spain) (0.86) 10,702.90
26 Basque (Alava, Spain) (0.7) 10,243.17
27 Basque (Guipuzcoa, Spain) (0.89) 9,925.73
39 Basque (Navarre, Spain) (0.9) 8,209.98
69 Basque (Vizcaya, Spain) (0.84) 5,867.49
653 Basque (France) (0) 0.00
A glance at the abstract of the article by A. M. Lopez-Parra et al., to which you supplied a link, shows that one of the haplogroups common among Basques is I2a2-M26. If I had just followed that link earlier I would have understood that population 653 when I first ran across it. Is I2a2-M26 a population that would have started with R1b in its travel west, would it have been picked up along the way, or would it have already been in the Pyrenees when R1b arrived?
I also looked at the pictures of Basque people you linked to and I don’t think I look Basque. Although my mother did have dark hair and my father did have the nose with the hump in the middle (it’s gotten smaller through the generations). Both parents had blue eyes but I suppose my blondish hair came from somewhere else.
1 Basque (0.92) 148,862.60
12 Basque (Spain) (0.91) 17,099.73
13 Basque (Basque Country, Spain) (0.88) 16,278.12
25 Basque (Vizcaya, Spain) (0.86) 10,702.90
26 Basque (Alava, Spain) (0.7) 10,243.17
27 Basque (Guipuzcoa, Spain) (0.89) 9,925.73
39 Basque (Navarre, Spain) (0.9) 8,209.98
69 Basque (Vizcaya, Spain) (0.84) 5,867.49
653 Basque (France) (0) 0.00
A glance at the abstract of the article by A. M. Lopez-Parra et al., to which you supplied a link, shows that one of the haplogroups common among Basques is I2a2-M26. If I had just followed that link earlier I would have understood that population 653 when I first ran across it. Is I2a2-M26 a population that would have started with R1b in its travel west, would it have been picked up along the way, or would it have already been in the Pyrenees when R1b arrived?
I also looked at the pictures of Basque people you linked to and I don’t think I look Basque. Although my mother did have dark hair and my father did have the nose with the hump in the middle (it’s gotten smaller through the generations). Both parents had blue eyes but I suppose my blondish hair came from somewhere else.
L.D.Brousse
12 February 2010 - 14:05 PM
My Brousse's/Bruce's did have a bump on their long straight nose my generation is the first not to have it. But I'm still not sure I'm Basque or at least my Y dna
Jean M
12 February 2010 - 15:07 PM
@ L.D. Brousse. You give your Y-DNA as R1b1b2a1b3. That is the Family Tree DNA designation for R1b-M167/SRY2627, known as R1b1b2a1a2c in the ISOGG 2010 tree. (Just so that we are all on the same page.) There is a Family Tree DNA project on this haplogroup.
As I explained above, it does not seem to be of Basque origin. The highest level of it so far recorded (48%) was found in a village high in the Pyrenees on the border between France and the Catalonia region of Spain, which is NOT BASQUE. As you know, there is a thread on this topic in the forum : SRY2627-- possible locations in France?
@ rwporter - DNA tribes appears to be a complete waste of time and money.
As I explained above, it does not seem to be of Basque origin. The highest level of it so far recorded (48%) was found in a village high in the Pyrenees on the border between France and the Catalonia region of Spain, which is NOT BASQUE. As you know, there is a thread on this topic in the forum : SRY2627-- possible locations in France?
@ rwporter - DNA tribes appears to be a complete waste of time and money.
