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The monolith of R1a1a has been subdivided at last by two new SNPs. The latest update to the Peopling of Europe: Indo-European genetics works in this important finding of Peter A Underhill et al., Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a, European Journal of Human Genetics (4 November 2009).
A newly-discovered marker, M458, defines the new haplogroup R1a1a7. It was immediately apparent to R1a1a specialists here that this was a Slavic marker, distributed over the Slavic-speaking areas of Europe. Yet the paper's authors said no such thing. They have used the Zhivotovsky "evolutionary rate" for dating, which habitually overestimates ages by a factor of three. So once again we have excellent data, but an interpretation that makes little sense.
The authors attempt to connect R1a1a7 with the Neolithic culture of Linearbandkeramik or the Copper to Bronze Age Corded Ware Culture, even though they recognise that the group of Corded Ware skeletons found at Eulau do not carry R1a1a7. Of course the skeletons were not tested for the new marker M458. However they deduce that the
That suggests that some Corded Ware Culture people entered Scandinavia along with Corded Ware pottery and other elements of the culture. Linguists deduce that the Proto-Germanic language developed in the Nordic Bronze Age , spreading southwards gradually into what is now Germany from the Iron Age into the Post-Roman period. The value of ancient DNA is immense.
A newly-discovered marker, M458, defines the new haplogroup R1a1a7. It was immediately apparent to R1a1a specialists here that this was a Slavic marker, distributed over the Slavic-speaking areas of Europe. Yet the paper's authors said no such thing. They have used the Zhivotovsky "evolutionary rate" for dating, which habitually overestimates ages by a factor of three. So once again we have excellent data, but an interpretation that makes little sense.
The authors attempt to connect R1a1a7 with the Neolithic culture of Linearbandkeramik or the Copper to Bronze Age Corded Ware Culture, even though they recognise that the group of Corded Ware skeletons found at Eulau do not carry R1a1a7. Of course the skeletons were not tested for the new marker M458. However they deduce that the
Quote
composite 15-locus YSTR haplotype representing the ancient lineage suggests its potential R1a1a*(xM458) membership due to four alleles (DYS391¼11, DYS439¼10, DYS389B¼17 and DYS458¼15) shared with the median R1a1a*(xM458) haplotype... Interestingly ...the ancient haplotype is most similar to the German R1a1a*(xM458) type.
That suggests that some Corded Ware Culture people entered Scandinavia along with Corded Ware pottery and other elements of the culture. Linguists deduce that the Proto-Germanic language developed in the Nordic Bronze Age , spreading southwards gradually into what is now Germany from the Iron Age into the Post-Roman period. The value of ancient DNA is immense.
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Aaron1981
24 November 2009 - 17:29 PM
If we put Proto-Germanic in Jutland as early as 2500 BC simply because there is no non-IE traceable evidence in the region, why is Proto-Celtic put so late in the British Isles? It doesn't make logical sense that IE migrants (assuming they were not native to Europe for a moment) would enter a far less resourceful region such as Jutland and far northern Europe...does it? If we place proto dialects in Europe at such an early stage, should we not do so for the Iberian peninsula,UK/Ireland, and Atlantic Europe? These same linguists are stating that Proto-Celtic is no older than 500BC which seems far too late in my apparently ignorant view.
Jean M
24 November 2009 - 17:54 PM
Hello Aaron
I'm not putting Proto-Germanic in Jutland as early as 2500 BC. What I and others have tried to do is trace the movements of people who initially all spoke Proto-Indo-European, as they gradually diverged, spread and migrated over thousands of years, eventually ending up as a widespread family of many languages. Here's what I say in the Peopling of Europe: The Indo-European family
The people of the Corded Ware Culture were not speaking Proto-Germanic. We would expect them to still be speaking mutually-intelligible dialects of the mother-language, some inclining towards pre-Germanic, some pre-Baltic. The trails are not easy to follow. When linguists say that a proto-language developed at a certain date, that does not mean that the people arrived in a particular place at that date.
I'm not putting Proto-Germanic in Jutland as early as 2500 BC. What I and others have tried to do is trace the movements of people who initially all spoke Proto-Indo-European, as they gradually diverged, spread and migrated over thousands of years, eventually ending up as a widespread family of many languages. Here's what I say in the Peopling of Europe: The Indo-European family
Quote
The next movement visible in the archaeology flowed to the western end of the steppes, integrating the lowland steppe and upland farming communities in the Usatovo culture around the mouth of the Dniester River. This culture probably represents the Pre-Germanic dialect splitting away. (Eventually one twig of this branch would develop into English.) This dialect did have words for wheel and wagon, and some arable farming vocabulary. Later there was migration up the Dniester through Late Cucuteni-Tripolye territory into the widespread north European Corded Ware Culture. Eventually Proto-Germanic developed, probably in Scandinavia about 500 BC.
The people of the Corded Ware Culture were not speaking Proto-Germanic. We would expect them to still be speaking mutually-intelligible dialects of the mother-language, some inclining towards pre-Germanic, some pre-Baltic. The trails are not easy to follow. When linguists say that a proto-language developed at a certain date, that does not mean that the people arrived in a particular place at that date.
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